Commandments in the brit relationship

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The seven commandments of Ger Toshavim and the commandments of Bnai Noach are not at all the same. The Bnai Noach it seems to me qualify as a new creation like the Ger Tzedek.

Questiion

Moshe,

My understanding of a ger toshav is that of a gentile who was given permission to live in Israel only after swearing to up hold the 7 Noahide Laws. And that this status was not guaranteed even after swear to uphold the 7 Noahide Laws.

Additionally, I am understanding that this particular status, ger toshav, is not currently in affect.

I may have misunderstood the information I was given. I would like to confirm this.

Please site your sources that say the 7 commandments for a ger toshav and a Bnai Noach are not the same. I will confirm my understanding with my teacher.

Respectfully, Quill

Answer

Quill,

Your asking an excellent question. The distinction between Ger Toshav and Bnai Noach constitutes as a Gray area in the Talmud. The period of the compilation of the Talmud was a very troubled period. Following the bar Cochva revolts the Romans proceeded to force all Jews to leave the lands of Israel. Wars between the Romans and the Persian made life for Jews in Bavil also very chaotic. Even though the Persian authorities recognized the Resh Galuta, the King of Israel in exile, Jewish status in Bavil was very touch and go. Jewish scholars had to be very careful not to offend the Persian government. Jews living with in the Roman Empire times were very hard. Fifty years after the bar Cochva revolt the Jews of Alexandra Egypt revolts and were brutally crushed. Alexandra Egypt was like what New York is today.

Consequently the Talmud does not openly discuss non Jews observing Torah in the lands out side of the borders of Israel and only limits itself to the Ger Toshav resident alien who lived under Jewish governmental authority. Since there did not exist any Jewish governmental authority in Israel this teaching of ger toshav could not offend the goyish masters of their Jewish slaves.

with respect Moshe

Question

Hello Moshe,

Please list the references you are referring to.

This is 'gray area' you mention is exactly what I want to confirm with my teacher. If you don't have references, please do not just state your opinion. You are confusing me and probably confusing others.

Thank You, Quill

Hello Moshe,

You wrote:

Since there did not exist any Jewish governmental authority in Israel this teaching of ger toshav could not offend the goyish masters of their Jewish slaves.

IMHO this does not relate to the subject of ger toshav vs Bnai Noach and their 7 commandments.

It is confusing why you bring this up. Please list your references so I can confirm with my teacher.

Respectfully, Quill

Answer

Quill shalom,

As i've written in the past good scholarship takes into account the historical reality of the times. To understand the editing decision made during the compilation of the Talmud a scholar must understand the times that the compilers lived in.

An example of this the T'nach itself employs the writings of the prophets overlap with the historical writings of Kings etc.

with respect, Moshe

Quill shalom,

the gray areas of Sha's constitute the self censorship exercised by the Sages to protect their communities from a destructive back lash reaction from the authorities, Jews were not living in their own land but managed as strangers in other peoples lands. These other people quite frequently felt hostility to the Jews.

with respect, Moshe

Question

Moshe,

Neither of your posts have the references I've requested.

Please site your sources that say the 7 commandments for a ger toshav and a Bnai Noach are not the same. I will confirm my understanding with my teacher.

If you do not have any reference to this, please do not just state your personal interpretation of material. It is confusing.

Respectfully, Quill

Answer

Quill shalom,

I have made a logical inference on the gemarah of Sanhedrin pp 56 -60. From the Reshonim that i've examined my opinion is unique. The reshonim reach different conclusions. I do not seek to oppose the reshonim, but i feel that the re establishment of Jewish independent ruler-ship in Israel requires original thinking.

I am very concerned with the growth of the EU. It has gone from a common market of 10 states to a EU of 25 states. I'm very much concerned that the EU wants to make the Middle East there "backyard". That they want to have a relationship with the Middle Eastern states on par with what the US has a relationship with South and Central America.

I understand diplomacy as the art of making alliances.

The alliance building of the Arab states since 1948 a concerted effort to internationally isolate the Jewish State, they have sought to implement international embargoes, Zionism is racism, apartheid etc.

The wisdom that the EU seeks to make alliances, centers around economics. I seek to convince my peers that the strategic alliance making approach of the Jewish State should center around building an international Torah based civilization. I'm interpreting the Torah as a political document.

with respect, Moshe

Question

Moshe,

I'm not the smartest or most educated person around. But your previous post appears to me to sharply move away from the discussion at hand, which was the supposed difference between the 7 Commandments of a ger toshav and a beni-noah.

You wrote:

From the Reshonim that i've examined my opinion is unique. The reshonim reach different conclusions. I do not seek to oppose the reshonim, but i feel that the re establishment of Jewish independent ruler-ship in Israel requires original thinking.


I can respect that you have your own opinion. However, you should discuss your differences with the Reshonim with your Rav, not here.

I respectfully request one last time that you stop putting your own personal spin on the Torah and posting it here. It is too confusing.

Please stick to the discussion at hand and the basic facts or stop posting.

Thank You, Quill

Answer

Quill, shalom.

You wrote "stop putting your own personal spin...its too confusing".

A good teaching clarifies rather than confuses, clearly my efforts might have muddled the waters. As a point of definition, halacha and dogma share many external similarities. The distinction between the two: the former has dynamic properties whereas the latter remains static irregardless of the times and circumstances. The catholic church stands upon religious dogmatism whereas Torah stands upon halacha. Every generation requires "their" poskim, because the times and circumstances in the world of mankind continually changes. A dynamic change has occurred in the world since 1948, the establishment of the Jewish State. It seems to me that halacha must recognize this new reality. The perspectives of exiled Jewry and Sabra Jewry: the two view the world looking through completely different glasses.

If you perceive confusion, your not alone. The Torah/Zionist axis spins very fast. There exists today, of which i am sure that your well aware, many Orthodox religious Jews opposed to Zionism. These folk view Zionism as against halacha and a terrible sin. Their opinion they base upon a strict constructionist reading of the gemarah of K'tovote. As i understand the opinion of Rav Shwartz, he favors an halachic relationship with Zionism. His opinion, which i support, has boldness and has required tremendous courage taken by his person. Consequently our difference of opinion is but tactical and not strategic.

Still its clear as the sun in the sky that you as a web-master only desire the opinion of the Rav. I shall comply with your command.

with respect,

Moshe

Question

Moshe,

I accept that you are a test for me from Hashem. Thank You. I pray I can work hard to pass this test correctly.

You go to far, IMHO, in comparing the halacha of the Torah to idolatry. Additionally this is the second time you have brought into question, in a public forum, the opinions of a former teacher and a superior of yourself.

I do not command you. I made a respectful request, which you ignored. Consider me more like an umpire. You are in the bottom of the ninth inning with two strikes. One more and game over.

Answer

Quill shalom,

Halacha to idolatry? How do you conceive that i make such a comparison? Superior to myself? Rabbinate are not army officers. The umpire as i understand it calls the shots: ball, strike or foul. The players have to abide by the call of the ump. Consider this year's Super Bowl.

with respect, Moshe

Question

Hello Moshe,

Just so you understand why you are at least temporarily having your posting privileges suspended, I am answering this post.

You compare the halacha of Torah to the writings of a religion of idolatry. You put, by doing this, the Torah on an equal level with such writings! This is not acceptable.

The Rabbinate are your superiors in knowledge of the Torah and in how to conduct themselves in public when speaking on matters related to the Torah. Please reread your posts and you decide if this is what you would say in front of a group of 100's, with the Rabbis present.

Now, you may or may not be able to see how your posts appear to people reading here. It appears that you consider yourself an expert. Yet you do not state what specific materials, course of study etc. have led you to arrived at your final conclusions, other than to say you have your own opinion that differs with most everyone else.

I do think original thinking is good, if it is directed at learning how to and actually apply The Torah in todays world. The Torah and what it tells you to do does not change. It applies the same today as the first day given.

You are allowed to have your own personal opinion. But in matters related to The Torah and in teaching Torah related directives from Hashem is not the time for you to be discussing your personal difference of opinion with leading Rabbis! Please discuss with your own Rabbi in private.

So, how do you get your posting privileges back?

Please discuss your ideals with either the Rav or Daniel and see if one of them will agree to let you try again.

Answer

Quill shalom,

A for good overview of the Oath/brit perspective please examine "Covenant as a political Concept" by Daniel J. Elazar

Its a very informative general overview.

with respect, Moshe

Quill shalom,

The emotion of בטל requires establishment of priorities. Because king Saul lacked development of this particular attribute he lost the kingdom and plunged the first commonwealth into civil war. Upon this unique middah hinges the brit of Sinai and Gilgal, life and death, blessing and cursing.

At the revelation of Torah at Sinai the bnai noach nations, at that critical moment, refused to accept the Torah. Because Torah stands upon the brit established by Adam and Noach, when Ishmael and Esau refused the Torah, bnai noach abandoned their brit with the Ancient of Days. The Sinai revelation amplified and clarified the cutting consequences of the oath/brit responsibilities. At Sinai and again at Gilgal the Ancient of Days separated His Chosen people from the nations of the world just as similarly occurred upon the first Passover.

This brit does in no way negate the belief of the nations in their gods. Rather that the bnai brit people shall not switch their allegiance and worship other gods. Belief in god has no more power to effect a change among the bnai brit peoples vis a vis the non-Bnai Brit peoples than does an idol who has eyes yet can not see. Human belief system inherently negate objectivity and/or humility.

The worship of the Ancient of Days requires not following the manners and customs of the non-bnai brit nations, who strongly believe in their gods. The order of priority of the Torah bnai brit peoples: first we shall seek to establish the reign of just ruler-ship upon the earth. Thereby making this world fit for the Ancient of Days to dwell in our midst; and only afterwards offering up our prayers ritual habits and sacrifices. Because king Saul failed to destroy Amalek but rather chose to offer sacrifices, the Ancient of Days rejected His Anointed. Developing the emotional attribute of בטל allows a man to remember all the commandments.

Remembering all the commandments requires priority. The distinction between the first book of the Torah and the other four, בראשית addresses the brit bnai noach whereas the rest of the Torah centers specifically upon brit bnai Israel. The Avot kept all the commandments and kept and preserved the brit bnai noach.

The book of שמות: And arose a new king upon Egypt that did not know Yosef. Where the Avot had doubts if peoples and nations kept the brit bnai noach the book of שמות explicitly teaches that the king of Egypt had abandoned the brit bnai noach. The government of Yosef obviously guarded and maintained the brit of noach. From this source the Talmud teaches that the nations today have no commandment to keep the commandments. That if a non-bnai brit person wants to return to his/her original status that he/she must of necessity stand before a court and swear to keep and uphold the brit bnai noach.

Because the "new" king of Egypt abandoned the brit of noach the Torah speaks of the theft and oppression that these non-bnai brit people did unto the bnai brit peoples. The floods destroyed the world due to forbidden sexual relations, theft and oppression. When the aggadah teaches that Esau and Ishmael rejected the Torah revelation of Sinai a couple of logical inferences a scholar of Torah can deduce:

(1) Esau and Ishmael, descendants of Avraham and Yitzak, rejected not only the brit of Sinai but these nations also rejected the brit of their fathers. Hence these nations to this day have forbidden sexual relations and fill the world with theft and oppression.

(2) the Talmud teaches that Avraham kept all the commandments, Torah commandments clarify the brit bnai noach obligations! If the Avot kept all the commandments why should later generations of bnai noach not honor the Avot of mankind: Adam Noach Avraham Yitzak and Yaacov? Because the latter four books of the Torah have a בטל relationship to the first book of the Torah the Torah begins with בראשית.

moshe

Quill shalom,

At this time I'd like to return to the bnai noach ger toshav divide. Of the 7 commandments of bnai noach, which commandment is most obviously lacking? Honor your father and mother! A scholar of Torah must not only examine what's written but what's been edited out. Why do you suppose this great and natural commandment fails to make the list of the 7 commandments?

One simple logical deduction: that the ancestors of Bnai Noach refused to accept the Torah therefore the generations that come there after should not follow in the error of their fathers and mothers. The difficulty with this deduction: that it fails to shed light upon ger toshav.

Consider the history. The Talmud debated for generations if the Cutiem/Samaritans cut a true brit or if they cut a brit out of fear of lions and therefore in reality walked in the pathways of the non-bnai brit nations. If they were true bnai brit, a Jewish man might marry a Cuti woman or visa versa. This doubt created allot of problems for the Sages of Israel.

Ger Toshav, when they have a possibility of existing, are only a sub culture of a larger Jewish host nation. The Sages did not want to establish possible future headaches. The Talmud has serious doubts on the authentic of the conversion of Ger Tzedek, one opinion holds a doubt upon the validity of their conversion for 7 generations! Consequently Ger Toshav also came under serious scrutiny and suspicion.

Bnai noach are not and can not be a sub-culture of Jewry. They must be their own people. The Jewish state sits in the middle of a major trade route. We can not afford to become internationally isolated. The foreign policy of the Arab states since 1948 has centered upon efforts to internationally isolate the Jewish State. Examples being the Arab embargo, Zionism is racism in the UN, comparing Israel to S. African apartheid. taking Israel to the world court. In nature a lone animal is easy, or at least easier, prey for the predators to feast upon; nations are no different. The wisdom of diplomacy: the art of making alliances. Study the T'nach. The T'nach diplomacy centers around alliance building. King Solomon married 1000 woman not because he wanted children from them! Other kings of Israel would bring foreign gods into the State and capital for the same reason that king Solomon married 1000 women.

Israel today constitutes as a very tiny country. We can not compete with the economic superpowers of the US EU or Japan and China. If we are to succeed in developing strong alliances internationally we must rely on and establish a foundation of trust other than economics. Therefore I, a minority opinion among my peers, seek to inspire the Bnai Noach peoples to embrace the Torah as their fundamental law in so doing push my people to do the same. Israel today has no Constitution! Everyone does what is good in their own eyes, just like the Torah explicitly says not to do and which also occurred in the book of Judges!

The times of the book of Judges were times of chaos and anarchy. Consider the weekly reading of the Torah this last shabbot. Does the torah speak only of the dimensions of the Mishkan or does it teach that a leader of a people needs to place a vision of identity into the eyes and heart of the nation. The prophets later taught: A nation without a vision - dies! My people and nation faces serious threats, I am reaching out and asking for help.

When i studied in the university, foreign policy was my major. Specifically i studied revolutionary governments. For my people pro and con 1948 was a revolution! What causes a revolution to occur? That's a very complicated question to answer. But to the best of my understanding, all nations and peoples exist in a kind of "ethical containment force". Each people and culture, the people inside of a particular group more easily relate to insiders within the group because they share a common and accepted "ethical containment force". If you shatter this ethical containment force anarchy chaos and war ensue. For example: The French revolution sought not only to over throw the monarchy of France but it also wanted to cast the catholic church upon the dung heaps of history. The result a major civil war in Europe! The bolsheviks not only wanted to over throw the Tsar of Russia but also the Greek Orthodox Church. The result a major civil war in Russia! The Nazis not only wanted to over throw the democratic republic of Germany but also the Judao christian traditions. The result a major civil war in Europe. The wars in south east Asia of Pol Pot accomplished the same result. The civil war in China with the "cultural revolution" produced similar results. The Shah of Iran Komani did not just want the Shah out but also the western traditions that he imported. The result: immediate war with Iran and Iraq where millions died.

Individuals as well as nations have their "ethical containment forces". I do not seek nor desire to break your or anyone else's. But the fact of the matter is that the establishment of the Jewish State has broken the ethical containment force of the Muslim world. Man's ability to kill man has exponentially increased following ww2. Israel desperately needs Bnai Noach allies.

with respect,

Moshe

Question

Hello Moshe,

You're back! OK.

I have to ask you some questions to understand your post correctly.

What does this mean? (I don't read Hebrew yet.) 'The emotion of בטל '


Are you referring to Bereishit(Genesis) with this? 'בראשיתaddresses the brit bnai noach'


I don't quite understand what you mean here:

This brit does in no way negate the belief of the nations in their gods. rather that the bnai brit people shall not switch their allegiance and worship other gods.


It seems you are saying that even though Hashem made a Covenant with the Nations, this doesn't stop them from idol worship. But you are also saying that because of our Covenant from Hashem, we should not be starting to do idol worship from the start anyway. Is this understanding correct?

Almost done. By the following do you mean to say if we do not KNOW within ourselves that Hashem is here and expects us to do what we are told, then we will not do and act as we should? I ask this because, just me, there is a difference in believing and knowing. Beliefs change with the wind. Knowing we must do as we are commanded, even if we don't like it, is much different than 'believing' we 'probably' should do something.

Belief in God has no more power to effect a change among the bnai brit peoples vis a vis the non-bnai brit peoples than does an idol who has eyes yet can not see. Human belief system inherently negate objectivity and/or humility.


Quill

Moshe,

One simple logical deduction: that the ancestors of Bnai Noach refused to accept the Torah therefore the generations that come there after should not follow in the error of their fathers and mothers. The difficulty with this deduction: that it fails to shed light upon Ger Toshav.

My understand is that even though the Nations refused the Torah, there were individuals who did not. Also, some say that the Bnai Noach have taken on themselves to honor their parents. Sometimes, it seems to me, we can honor our parents by also learning from them what not to do. As in the case of choosing not to follow idolatry.

Quill

Moshe,

You wrote: Ger Toshav, when they have a possibility of existing, are only a sub culture of a larger Jewish host nation. The Sages did not want to establish possible future headaches. The Talmud has serious doubts on the authentic of the conversion of Ger Tzedek, one opinion holds a doubt upon the validity of their conversion for 7 generations! Consequently Ger-Toshav? also came under serious scrutiny and suspicion.


A Ger Tzedek is a convert. I have been taught that the convert is not to be treated any differently than another Jew. Of course I have just a basic understanding that there are somethings, related to who to marry or being a member of a tribe, that they can't do. So I have some difficulty understanding what you say here.

Also, a Ger Tzedek (convert) and a ger toshav (resident non-Jew) are totally different. So I don't understand how you draw the conclusion that the opinion you listed about a Ger Tzedek (convert) has any bearing on a ger toshav (resident non-Jew).

Rather would it not be correct that the scrutiny of a ger toshav is related to the Commandment that idol worshipers shall not be allowed to live amongst the Jewish Nation? That great care must be taken in allowing non-Jewish people to live with the Jewish? That just as great a care must be taken with who the Jewish associate with?

Quill

Moshe,

Bnai noach are not and can not be a sub-culture of Jewry. They must be their own people.


This is what I have been taught. That Bnai noach have their own purpose in this world. However, we are still supposed to turn to the learned Jewish when we have doubt about our understanding of what the Torah is telling us to do.

And even though our purpose is a bit different, still both groups are supposed to be working, according to their specific instruction from Hashem, to make this a fit place for Hashem.

At least, this is my current understanding.

Quill

Hello Moshe,

Individuals as well as nations have their "ethical containment forces". I do not seek nor desire to break your or anyone else's. But the fact of the matter is that the establishment of the Jewish State has broken the ethical containment force of the Muslim world. Man's ability to kill man has exponentially increased following ww2. Israel disparately needs Bnai Noach disparately allies.


I understand what you are saying here. But first, I will say, as I have been taught and as the Torah shows us to be true, the Jewish Nation must do what Hashem has told them. And Hashem will protect you if you do so. Next, as you can see, you must be waring of Bnai Noach allies who do not follow or acknowledge HaShem's directive to them! They 'believe' they are doing OK one day, and the next their belief will change. You have already pointed this out, about beliefs.

Bnai Noach allies, who have been taught and have learned and who KNOW what Hashem is directing them to do, just me, will be your allies.

So, it comes back to this: Therefore I, a minority opinion among my peers, seek to inspire the Bnai Noach peoples to embrace the Torah as their fundamental law in so doing push my people to do the same.


So the first step is just what this site has been setup to do. To educate all those Bnai Noach who don't know what it is they are falling to do. Follow HaShem's Commandments to us correctly.

Now, I need to add this, I'm not by any means an expert here. My word is not the final word. What I have written is my understanding based on what I have so far learned. And I have a long, long way to go yet.

Respectfully, Quill

Anwser

Quill shalom,

A brit requires an oath, no Oath no Brit. This brit relationship every generation has an obligation to choose. Jews are a people not a race. Just because our parents were Jewish does not mean that we can ride on their coat-tales. The T'nach brings precedents of renewing the brit. So does the Torah its called "Passoch". The son of king Menashe renewed the brit after his father abandoned the brit. The sheep follow the shepherd. Leadership entails tremendous responsibilities.

בטל, earlier i posted on strings under prayer this is one example. Another: breads' relationship to cakes. If a person eats a cake he/she has to make a blessing. If afterwards this same person chooses to eat bread he/she has to make another blessing. However if a person eats first bread after making a blessing if this same person chooses to eat a cake he/she does not require another blessing. This teaching 6th chapter of Bracote, defines the emotional attribute of בטל.

בראשית the first word of the Torah contains 2 words אש ברית the fire of the brit its foundation upon which it stands: the formal oath said before a Safer Torah. The standing prayer, its best location to pray being the synagogue. Why? There's a Safer Torah that a person stands in front of, and to make an oath a person needs to STAND before the Torah! The distinction between making a blessing and a praise being that a blessing under certain conditions qualifies as being an oath! The B'hag, a gaon that preceded the reshonim era held that saying 100 blessings a day qualifies as one of the 613 commandments! All these blessings are of Rabbinic origin how then could making 100 rabbinic blessings be a commandment from the time of Moses?! The B'hag, as i understand his intent, learned that when king David instituted making 100 blessings a day after people died premature deaths as taught in the Talmud, that his reason rested upon the opinion that a blessing under certain conditions qualified as an oath, and that to cut a brit was a commandment from the Torah incumbent upon all generations! The prophet Havakook also understood that a blessing qualifies as an oath. So did R. Akiva along with both R. Yohanan and Resh Lakish in the gemara of brachot the Mishneh addressing the 4 blessing in the standing prayer. This gemarah brings a dispute between RaMBaM and Rashe, Rashe holds that a blessing is in the family of an oath from the rabbis while RaMBaM holds that a blessing is in the family of an oath from the Torah! If so this presents a strong question on RaMBaM, how could he have a shock that the B'hag ruled the way he did? My answer: that possibly Rashe's view is correct, therefore RaMBaM learned that Prayer was a commandment from the Torah, similar to the B'hag, from a gemarah in Yoma 39. Its an interesting debate between the sages and Rabbi Meir. R. Meir brings the confession of Moshe our Teacher, whereas the sages bring a confession from the Nach of king David, Daniel, and Ezra. The halacha follows the opinion of the Sages. But how could the Nach and the rabbis rule against Moshe, the greatest of all prophets, and the halachah follow their opinion? There's a rule: individual and majority the halacha follows after the majority, in rabbinic judgments! The framers of the standing prayer did not include a confession in the standing prayer?! How can prayer function in the place of sacrifices if sacrifices absolutely must have a confession and prayer has none. The 3rd blessing of pardon in no way qualifies as a confession, for if it did why then do the sages permit a person in the last of the middle blessing: hear our cry, to add the rabbinic confession?!

Therefore one must learn that the framers of the standing prayer, the Yerushalmi Talmud teaches that more than 247 prophets occupied themselves with writing the standing prayer, did not include a confession from the rabbis in the original language of the standing prayer. If so what's the difference between a confession from the Torah and a confession from the Rabbis? a confession requires a dedication of the soul according to the Torah where as the rabbinic confession teaches of the form of the confession we have sinned, transgressed, and rebelled.

If a person dedicates his/her soul unto the Name. What is the Name of the Soul? The name of the Soul is Hashem! Hashem resides in the Soul of man. The intent of prayer requires faith and kavannah of Hashem inside the soul and not Hashem sitting in the heavens! Kavannah gives a direction to where one prays, hence the Talmud also makes the external teaching of form and says that a person should face unto Yerushalem!

with respect Moshe


Quill shalom,

As mentioned earlier, diplomacy means "The art of making alliances". A brit constitutes as a political alliance. An alliance is a long term connection. By contrast as opposed to a comparison, when the first president Bush sent troops to fight in the Gulf War, he formed an international coalition of forces, but when Iraq withdrew from Kuwait his international coalition collapsed. The distinction between an alliance/brit and a coalition: permanent as opposed to short term alliance.

An alliance takes an oath. Currently there does not exist even the beginnings of a Torah civilization because no country on this earth has the Torah as its Constitutional Basis/Framework/Mandate of all succeeding government forms.

Education for Bnai Noach has not even started! Bnai Noach require/need/must have access to "their" constitutional sources. As you said you don't know Hebrew. I can show you a method of learning that can give you access to all the primary sources in about 11/12 years. The first time i finished sha's with my rav we did it in about 4 months after i completed my basics which took me about 2 years, I'm a little slow.

with respect Moshe


Quill shalom,

Bnai Noach turn to the Torah scholars, the Talmud teaches more than the student wants to learn the Rav wants to teach.

But know that there's' a purpose, the Jewish Torah scholars want to produce Bnai Noach scholars that can study and interpret the intent of the framer of our common constitution while they stand on their own feet!

Got to go my daughter has CF and this is her monthly weighing and breathing test. I use no drugs allot of spices and 7% salt inhalations last month her lung function was 90%. On channuka we ran 25 kilometers in 4 hours, we're training to run 45 k and Dassi gets a computer she's 7 years old.

If Bnai Noach shall succeed it shall not exist merely as a group but rather as a SELF GOVERNING NATION.

with respect, Moshe

Quill shalom,

A Ger Tzedek can not become a judge, or assume any responsible leadership position under the Torah. King Herod was a "Ger Tzedek" whom people said that it was better to be a dog in his house than one of his relatives. Herod murdered his wife and sons! The Temple that he built was not even completed before the agents of Hashem, the Romans, burnt it to the ground and sent the Jewish people into the most terrible of exiles in all our history as a people. The brit of we shall do and we shall hear, we shall establish justice within our lands and afterwards we shall offer up our prayer, sacrifices and dedications. If you reverse the order instead of Avodat HaShem you have Avodot Hazarah! Herod, may his memory rot, reversed the order of the brit. The burden of the abomination lays upon the shoulders of the Jewish court. Herod stood before the court and these "judges" like the spies in the days of Moses failed to condemn him, except for one courageous judge. The din of heaven just as all the wicked spies died along with their entire generation so too all the cowardly judges died along with many many many generations of Israel that endured 2000 years of exile.


with respect, Moshe

Quill shalom,

As stated earlier, idolatry, constitutes as a very poor translation of avodah zarah. Avodah zarah occurs when a person allows his/her beliefs to over shadow objective study of what the Elohim commands His bnai brit people to do in this world. Any spirituality and/or theology that bases itself upon "belief" rather than commandments qualifies as avodah zarah. Idolatry misses the point or muddles the emphasis. Its not that a person bows down to an idol as god but rather that a person allows his/her belief in god(s) to determine the nature of god. This arrogance some call theology. Theology being the best definition of avodah zarah that i know.

with respect, Moshe

Quill

What other nation or people has accepted the Torah revelation at Sinai. The Karaites rejected the Oral Torah as did the Cutiem before them. What people do you refer to that accepted the Torah revelation at Sinai. The Talmud teaches that the descendant's of Yitro sat upon the Sanhedrin as judges. The Bnai Noach movement exists only as a seed in the ground. To my limited knowledge there currently are no Bnai Noach peoples alive on this planet! A Bnai Noach qualifies, like a Ger Tzedek, as a new creation. The Bnai Noach person must stand before a Safer Torah, or hold a Safer Torah, and swear: Elohi Adam, Noach, Avraham, Yitzak, and Yaacov before your Torah I do swear as a curse upon my house if i do acts of forbidden sex, theft and oppression among my bnai brit people. No oath no brit. How many Bnai Noach wanna bees have made this oath? The source for this oath, the Torah; where because the world was full of sexual perversion, theft and oppression HaShem decided to destroy His Creation.

If a person makes an oath this person does not say "I believe i made an oath". Belief has absolutely nothing to do with having an oath-brit relationship with the Ancient of Days nor with one's peoples. Contrast - not compare - the religious "idolatry" of mankind, avodah zarah stands upon the foundations of man's perjured belief systems. A believer shares much with a bribed judge, both do perversions of justice and both are blind and sacrifice human dignity upon their defiled altars of belief abominations.

The spirituality of Torah centers upon emotional maturity. This emotional maturity i understand as leaving one's cave of many colors. On the web page of Billy Jack Dial there's a long discussion of emotional barbarism, i invite you to check it out.

with respect, Moshe

Question

Hello Moshe,

You wrote: To my limited knowledge there currently are no Bnai Noach peoples alive on this planet! A Bnai Noach qualifies, like a Ger Tzedek, as a new creation.


This is exactly opposite my understanding. There are two Covenants that Hashem has made with the peoples of the earth.

One with the Jewish people and one with everyone else. Everyone else being the Bnai Noach.

What is 'new' is making all the non-Jewish aware of their Covenant.

Please confirm this for yourself with either your Rabbi or Rabbi Swartz. I am sure they can give you exact references for this.

Answer

Quill shalom,

The Avot of the people of Israel, RaMBaN in his famous commentary to the 5 books of Moses calls them Bnai Noach. Torah law stands upon legal precedent and not upon current personalities. Persuasion requires clear logical arguments. The Torah teaches "don't recognize persons in judgment". Its not about asking this opinion or that opinion rather Torah scholarship works on a consistant logic. Therefore this opinion of 2 covenants: I find no logical basis for such a mis-conseption. The Talmud explicitly teaches that the Avot kept all the commandments. The logical inference being that the Sinai revelation only further amplified the Brit Bnai Noach. The Talmud and midrash explicitly teach that (1) Esau and Ishmael - Bnai Noach rejected the Torah brit and (2) that the brit Bnai Noach no longer functions nor exists, that the reason for the Rabbinical Council opening in Detroit: that non jews do not have the status of being commanded to observe the commandments. That all non jews who swear to keep the "7 commandments" shall re-establish their "original" status. This is RaMBaMs opinion as i understand it. The question of understanding the intent of the written torah requires bringing precidents that can put the language of the written torah into context. My precident being the Talmudic opinion that Avraham kept all the commandments. Avraham being Bnai Noach. Therefore it seems reasonable to me to conclude that Bnai Noach who swear a Torah oath to accept the entire Torah, that their core commandments center around the 7, but that a planet entails much more strata of earth than its core.

with respect, may i add that i believe our dialogue is exceptional Moshe

Quill shalom,

It seems to me that if non Jews really want to accept the Torah then its not unreasonable for the Jewish people to say "PROVE IT". Jews and Non Jews have quite a long history. If the non-Bnai Brit individuals truly seek to cut a Brit with the Elohim of Israel then let them organize themselves let them acquire a Safer Torah for themselves, and let them make the Oath-Brit for themselves. But you can not have your cake and eat it as well. Currently non Jews have no brit relationship with the ((Ancient of Days.)) Belief systems, all belief systems, qualify as lies and avodah zarah, utter human vanity and total human arrogance. If a non-Bnai Brit person seeks to approach unto the Ancient of Days this person must of absolute necessity must purify ones' self from this טומאה. Before Israel accepted the revelation at Sinai we had to accept the Torah on the terms of the Ancient of Days. The bnai Noach individuals also must do the same. No oath, no brit period.


with utmost respect Moshe

Question

Hello Moshe,

You wrote:

Therefore this opinion of 2 covenants: I find no logical basis for such a mis-conseption. The Talmud explicitly teaches that the Avot kept all the commandments. The logical inference being that the Sinai revelation only further amplified the Brit Bnai Noach.


My understanding, which is basic, is also that Avraham kept all the commandments, including those specifically for the Jewish people and also that at Sinai the Brit Bnai Boach was reaffirmed.

As to two covenants, it is possible I am misunderstanding this. Let me say that my understanding is there are Directives that apply only to the Jewish people, for instance, Shabbos and the brit.

In the instance of Shabbos, non-Jews are not to observe this in the way of the Jewish. Does this mean I should not recognize Shabbos as special? Not to my understanding. It does mean I don't follow Hashems specific directives for the Jewish people on Shabbos.

As to the brit, this is a sign of the relationship of the Jewish to Hashem. It was specifically commanded to the Jewish and no one else, to my current understanding.

So, perhaps it is a more complete understanding for me to say that Hashem has a Contract with the peoples of the earth, and in this contract, there are specific details that apply only to the Jewish and not to everyone else.

Now, I am also understanding that, with proper study and guidance to do correctly, non-Jewish may commit to doing more than just the minimum. But may still not do those things specifically directed to the Jewish people. I'm not sure, but perhaps this is what you were saying with a planet entails much more strata of earth than its core.


Thank You for the thought provoking discussion. With respect, Quill.

Hello Moshe,

You wrote: It seems to me that if non Jews really want to accept the Torah then its not unreasonable for the Jewish people to say "PROVE IT".


Makes sense to me. I would say, however, it seems more important that we 'PROVE IT' to Hashem. Then everything else will follow.

Currently non Jews have no brit relationship with the Ancient of Days.


Well, I think there is a relationship, but it is not what is desired by Hashem, as you have pointed out.

Before Israel accepted the revelation at Sinai we had to accept the Torah on the terms of the Ancient of Days. The bn individuals also must do the same. No oath, no brit period.


Again, this is my understanding. However, as I'm sure you know, just because a person makes an oath in front of people, doesn't mean this is what is in their heart. In the long run, only Hashem knows if one makes a true oath.

But my understanding is this is currently in the works, to setup courts that Beni Noah can affirm their oaths to Hashem. Already, in Israel, this has occured with the ten men who stood before the Sanhedrin.

Respectfully, Quill

Answer

An halachic oath requires a Safer Torah. the pledge that the ten folk did in Israel, raises them to the level of receiving reward for the commandments which they observe, the "reward" being equal to a Bnai Brit. None the less the folk remain non-Bnai Brit because to date they have not sworn the oath before a Safer Torah to calling a curse upon them and their children for ever if they trespass over forbidden sexual relation, theft and oppression unto any of their Bnai Brit peoples. A pledge is not an oath. no oath no brit period.

with respect Moshe

The Talmud struggles with the Torah statement that Avraham would be the father of a multitude of nations. It seems to me that Bnai Noach qualifies as descendent's of Avraham as do Ger Tzeddik?. The midrash teaches that in the times of the redemption converts shall no longer be permitted. I understand this to mean that non-Bnai Brit peoples can cut a brit and become a new creation called Bnai Noach. The Bnai Noach nations the mandate by which they exist centers upon the Torah. These Bnai Brit peoples require an Oral Torah by which they can dedicate their lives to the prophetic revelation called TORAH which they accept as the basis for all good and bad that occurs in their lives. This understanding one can clearly see in the gemarah of brachot. Accepting a prophetic revelation is not the same thing as believing in a teaching or believing in god(s). One either accepts the revelation or refuses to accept the revelation and therefore has to live with the consequences that follow there after. Again the Talmud clearly teaches this because the Torah does not employ the language "you shall believe that i am which brought you out of Egypt". A prophetic revelation does not require belief. Rather a prophetic revelation produces consequences. Something like a domino effect. The commandments constitute as a means by which a person makes a dedication thereby acknowledging the holiness of the brit relationship. If the commandments are only ritual acts, whereby the soul of the person does not seek by means of commandment to make the brit relationship holy then the brit relationship ceases to be holy and becomes profane. This is what I understand the commandments to mean in a general sense, a good precedent for this opinion the gemarah of Maccot 21 and 22. The dedication of the priestly garments one can learn as solely appling to the garments, but I learn that all commandments have the same quality of raising the profane unto the holy. When I listened to the reading of the Torah this last shabbot I thought about the relevant mishneh and gemarah of Maccot that I mentioned above. Through looking in the lenses of Talmud I see the written Torah, this is how I learn. Bnai Noach need access to the primary sources and I am prepared to show unto the sons and daughters of Avraham how to learn Torah as a constitutional document.

with respect Moshe

Question

You wrote:

Bnai Noach need access to the primary sources and i am prepared to show unto the sons and daughters of Avraham how to learn Torah as a constitutional document.

I understand better now, I think, what you have been discussing. Of course that is what this site has been setup to do. To help Bnai Noach learn the Torah as it applies to them. That they will learn and follow the Laws of Hashem and according to these Laws, setup their lives, their countries based on this.

Respectfully, Quill